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  #31  
Old 10-31-2007, 03:27 AM
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Furachan Furachan is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

What it is, Peter is this: Herve ( as usual, bless his exiled Gallic heart...) has opened a bloody can of worms! Somewhere along the lines Oochappan came rushing out of his Tamil hideout with guns blazing, suggesting that there are "real" photographers on this site (like himself we assume) and... the fakes and pretenders (I HOPE I'm one of those, by God, cause I've tried hard enough ha ha!). Then somewhere in there George (Polonaise) was dragged in and things got pretty thick and far away from the initial thread.
On message, I would say, again that I often feel unworthy and a fake among so many genuine photographers, and this accounts in part, for my serial deletions.
Off message I would say to Henk: Henk-san, two things trouble me where you are concerned, one minor and one major. The minor quibble is your tendency to oversharpen your subjects to the point of mummification - it is not necessary, surely. More serious are your Messianic tendencies, also shared by George to some extent. Anytime someone sets himself up as a guru on this site, there will be trouble. And clearly Henk (George) too you have disciples, followers, mostly Polish in George's case, mostly I suppose Tamil in your case, Henk who would walk through fire for you. Personally that makes me queazy and I dare say I'm not the only one. Everything becomes polarized: there is ONE WAY to look at photography, ONE WAY to approach the world around us. Whether this speaks to bottomless securities in you or not I cannot say but it is not helpful.
I took the risk here of saying these things straight out because I fear that my subtle friend Luko's mellifluous and tangential words may have passed by their intended target. I don't think ANYONE will miss what I'm driving out.
So...let's relax, here, fellows. Tell your followers that you are made of clay and totally fallible, and that they are henceforth free to find their won way. We are all gentlemen here, are we not (more or less...) Let's drop the Messianic [email protected], right NOW, okay? No one, and I mean NO one wants it. I don't care if you clother your guru tendencies in self lacerating irony (George) or a language so opaque as to be almost unintelligible (yes, you, Henk) but just drop it, once and for all, and become human again so we can all breathe a little bit easier...
Amen.
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  #32  
Old 10-31-2007, 03:37 AM
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kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

I am sure there are some perfect photos out there, technically, composition too, but I think what makes a photo unforgettable, stick and basically win the prize (whatever it is, could be becoming just one person's favorite, or be so iconic it becomes the most famous ever) is not its perfection, it's what it says, and how it says it.

I have looked a lot at the Magnum portfolios lately, and it's evident to me that the main point of so many members of the agency is being against this idea that there is an objective quality that would decide if the photo is succesful or not. But its' good to be always unsatisfied, as long as it doesn;t become a bitter experience, or a bore to others. It's real the fact of taking photos that carries the day and the joy for me. That 99% are missed shots, and the rest quite not satisfying, on some subjective level, following my previous argument, well yes, it's fine, it's called striving, and the nature of the medium insures there is no end to it.
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  #33  
Old 10-31-2007, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: 30 years ago

You will try to compare (consciously or unconsciously) the photo to what was the reality
---------------------------------

finally, the thread is taking off! :-)

Animesh, a big objection from me on that notion of the shot taken and that not taken. This last one does not exist, it is not a photograph, never was, never will be. Overall, the shots you have missed will not tip the balance negatively in your body of work. Missing shots is photography,is the life of a photographer, incl. Cartier-Bresson.

I also think that it is self-defeating to be stuck on one's notion of a good image (worse, if it's others notions we want to follow). I think it's the pits, I am sure none of these photographers we admire go with this idea in mind. I think if i showed you guys what are the shots of mine i most prefer, you'd be surprised. Just as I was when I saw them. I do not want to recognize the "reality" I took when I see a shot of mine, I want 1+1=3.

It's so hard to achieve, you cannot plan it, it seems to have gotten away from you, but actually, this is a gift for having been there, and having taken the pain to strive, and follow your passion. You need that element of surprise, and the imagination to realize what happened, and what happened, if it must matter, is never 1+1=2.
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  #34  
Old 10-31-2007, 04:16 AM
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Furachan Furachan is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago, part II

That's easy, Animesh. That particular photo won so big because of its "accessibility", unlike many of your more subtle pics which the general public finds perhaps a little hard to penetrate, this one (which is a perfectly good photo by the way) is instant joy, instant recognition , and therefore scores big. I agree that you have done better, in works that are far more opaque, and hence there is a tradeoff.
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  #35  
Old 10-31-2007, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: 30 years ago

Well, that may explain why I have been scratching my head (and wielded my sword in the dark in case the dragons were after me...) at Henk's post then (then yours, Burma? cute kids? WTF????). If George (polonaise?) posted here, I missed that link in the conversation, and somehow it disappeared or got deleted.
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  #36  
Old 10-31-2007, 04:26 AM
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AnimeshRay AnimeshRay is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

Wow! I just discovered a fascinating thing!!

I copied your passage to Chinese Simp (whatever that means) in Babelfish, took the translation, retranslated back into English, and it was hilarious! You should try that :-D

Translation seems not even symmetric. And we try to understand one man's thought translated into Duch, then to Tamil, then to English, followed by tranlation into French then into another man's thought then to English....and we anticipate transitivity!! ;-DD
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  #37  
Old 10-31-2007, 06:13 AM
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Furachan Furachan is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

TRY to act as intelligent as we ALL know you are, Herve, okay. Just for a minute.
You started this whole thing, so bear with us.
1. (Burma, cute kids, etc.) was my sardonic follow-up on Luko's message sending up Henk's "JUST DO IT", calling him "Mr. Nike". With us so far, Herve? Need some stronger coffee. buddy?
2. The George but came from Henk himself in a diatribe that is more opaque and harder to parse than Rimbaud's iluminations or the later poems of Mallarme. Here is the quote from Henk:
likes to push his colors ... you were calling me ?

Herve, if you only had read my intro,
maybe you could understand why ...
same why George uses his settings ...
Personally I don't do "photography",
only abuse it,
maybe once you'll find the reason why ?

Come on, Herve, this is your baby, man. Make an effort to keep up, will you?
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  #38  
Old 10-31-2007, 10:08 AM
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oochappan oochappan is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

Francis, and I'm talking to you,
why the always Henk this or Henk that,
why always those imposing assumptions as personally if I take a camera,
I shut out all intelligence to open myself 100% to the world,
of course the know-how will be there in the background as a tool but the moment will ask to be creative at the spot filling it up almost unconsciously by this know-how.

How many times I had to see afterwards when I took more then one shot of a scene, just to make sure, the first one, that precious moment, was still the best and the rest missed that something magic of the moment.

Criticizing for yourself starts when you come back home choosing those shots that you feel succeeded as much as possible what you want to share to the world so about self-criticizing not that much intelligence is involved to recognize that one that floats above the others, having that tiny bit more of magic, trespassing techniques or framings or camera-settings.
So choosing yourself you criticize and hopefully you chose yourself, not that much influenced by others to prevail your outer most personal choice, your personality.
And choosing is part of your personal creativity, it makes you free.

Not that I shoot that much, I have to see something that retains my attention otherwise the motor is not there and that makes it personal too, choosing what really touch you.

It comes back at the end at your most personal choice which will express you !

Assuming that my settings are too sharp, it has a practical reason, I print those at 150% and quality is quite good, you can ask Kerribar as he got a book of me.

Like I wrote to you personally:
quite some risky business to put some appreciating green on one of your shots as you delete them all the time, not really a TE learning attitude. For focusing the better maybe a blog or an account on another site would serve you better in this aim for only the better.

I stripped the rest as it was meant personally but only this, you know as no one else, I was pushing you up at the start on TE with 'coconuts' but under the way you lost a bit your magic modest personality, the enjoyment of discovery maybe due to the saying 'He who pays the piper calls the tune'. And no, not in my habit of stalking others, too much editions of my hand are running on TE, getting appreciation from 90 up to more then 200, putting the lat higher and higher for them struggling for better as I care, always for the weak sometimes crude destroyed.

When I say, I abuse photography, I can assure I didn't touch one penny of my photos, all goes to poor, my equipment is only a tiny part of what I personally spend on top to help people to get a better income, managing housing-projects for more the 30.000 Euro with one phone call to friends, thanks to them but still experiencing that a personal perception is the key to proper sharing.

Ok, still got an immens mess here to order to go back to TN and still got 5 months of shooting left from last year, not having time to even look at them and I don't have an office to edit for me, I have to do it all on my own, the cleaning, washing, cooking, walking the dog :) and only after, the shooting ...
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  #39  
Old 10-31-2007, 05:16 PM
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kinginexile kinginexile is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

It will help if you do not bring back re-hashed subjects, in bold lines, as if you are still settling accounts using yet another unrelated thread to do so.

I started the thread about self-criticizing and self-questionning, I am not responsible for people's paranoia at the slightest little aparte, you know very well that Henk over-reacted, and that your own bold line outburst was to throw more mud on an already opaque set of off-topic arguments.
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  #40  
Old 10-31-2007, 06:46 PM
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AnimeshRay AnimeshRay is offline
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Default Re: 30 years ago

"I do not want to recognize the "reality" I took when I see a shot of mine, I want 1+1=3."

I think that is a rather insightful remark. I have furtively wished so too, furtively because I sometimes felt queasy of 'lying', but in the end my photographs are expressions of my own impressions, which has a reality outside the REALITY. In this connection I am reminded of a conversation between Einstein and Tagore back in July of 1940 in a Berlin suburb: "There is in human affairs an element of elasticity also, some freedom within a small range which is for the expression of our personality."

On an aside, note, however, the first sentence in the conversation and its opposition by Einstein. Modern physics actually sides with Dr. Mendel (as spoken by the paraprase of Tagore) in showing that modern physics had to dispense with the notion of causality. Einstein's views are no longer entertained by the mainstream physicists. The jury is still out, however, and Einstein might yet have the last laugh. But we do not know.
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